#011: Dwight Spencer: The Alchemy of Otherness and Creativity

It comes down to just being willing to try, just uh finding the inner courage to dig down and just start and see where it goes. Well, to perform in bands, you must have developed a certain proficiency for. The horn or whatever instrument you were playing. Yeah, my, uh, my principal was the French horn. I started in middle school, um, played. Uh, through most of high school, and, um, I, I loved it. It was, it was one of those things I, I loved so much that, um, I remember. Um, it was, it's kind of an expensive, uh, thing to pursue. Um, my, uh, parents were on board, but my dad told me that I needed to Uh, fund the private lessons and, and all of the expensive things that went along with it, and I went for it. Hello and welcome to another episode of For the Love of Creatives. I am Maddox, and today we have a special guest none other than our my co-host, Dwight Spencer is our featured guest today. Hey, great to be with everybody. We're gonna get to hear Dwight's, um, his journey, his story. So Dwight, um, tell us a little bit about who you are and what you're about. Sure, uh, I'm a Dallas native. I was born in Parkland Hospital and Spent my life in the mid cities and uh got to enjoy all of the things that came with being in suburbia. My parents did the best for me that they could. Uh, I had a rather strange experience with what it was to grow up in a way that I was always kind of the odd man out. And the communities I was in in Grand Prairie, um, Uh, I grew up in, uh, in and around very religious circles. I went to private schools and as a result, I was the only black face in the crowd. And so that's, that led to some interesting uh perspectives and of course, uh, I found myself in that awkward position of being, uh, the The black guy and the white crowd, and because I always hung around with the white kids, when I find myself in black spaces, I was always seen as a little different. So I spent a lot of time on my own. I, I read quite a bit and kind of lost myself in, in fiction and just trying to, uh, figure out what it would be like to, uh, just go off into other worlds. I spend a lot of time in nature, uh, spend a lot of time. As a child, writing, uh, a lot of, uh, adventures and, and things that I don't know, I may, I may pick up again someday, but I had a very rich, colorful internal world, and I, I still do to some degree, it just manifests a little differently. Uh, you know, of course, childhood was, uh, abruptly. Uh ended uh by having to enter the work world a little early and uh it ultimately culminated in an enlistment from '98 to 2002, uh, coming back to uh land in the Dallas-Fort Worth area again and eventually working for a large company that serves local government and I've done that for, uh, quite a long time and uh it's brought me a lot of joy because it's allowed me to uh help people through problems and try to figure out creative avenues for being able to just make things work. So that's me. Great. You, you mentioned a couple of things that I, I think may, I, I wanna ask how, how they fit together. You said that, you know, a lot of your early years were kind of Uh, feeling like you didn't fit in or othered and, um, and then you made the comment that you developed a very rich inner world, and I'm wondering how those two together, I mean, You're talking about a form of creativity, that inner world, and I'm wondering if that was in response to not feeling like you fit in, not, you know, that that other part, um, tell me a little bit about that. Sure. Um, one thing that was, uh, really hard to get away from was just the way that I immediately looked different from the people that surrounded me. And I could not help but feel Judged or be reminded at every turn that I was unique in a lot of ways and uh as I was a younger uh as a little kid. There were ways that it, it just didn't make sense and then I, I could, once I was old enough to kind of get a sense of what it was to be picked on, um, there were opportunities where Anytime I was the target of of ridicule, it stung in in ways that, you know, maybe it shouldn't have as much, but it really hurt because the places that I, I grew up in were so small and isolated. So every little interaction was magnified. And I guess where it hurt the most was there were times when Um, my parents were very young. Um, when I would share with them the things that were coming up for me where I was feeling picked on, their response was to kind of listen, but also kind of continue to pick on me. And that's, that's some of my earliest memories as a child, and I, I got the message that, well, you know, a lot of these things that don't feel so good, I should just keep to myself and just figure out a way to deal with it. You know, you, you talked about how it really stung and how hard it was to always be different, you know, the, the black face and all the white faces and, and the other other ways that maybe made you stand out. Um, I, you know, we live together. I'm, I'm your mate, so I, and I, I'm, I'm looking at it right now I'm thinking about how in many ways that hasn't changed, you know, we have a fairly rich social life and although we try to build diversity in our social life as much as we can in, uh, you know, in the art world, the black community is, is under um. Underrepresented, underrepresented. Thank you. I was gonna say underserved and I knew that wasn't right. Uh yes, underrepresentative, uh, represented, and, um, you know, even in our own social life we have a variety of, of different types of friends from different walks of life and certainly different races, but oftentimes you're still. Uh, a black face in a lot of white faces or maybe even like light brown faces. Sure, so I'm thinking somehow you have gotten past the challenge of that because you never mentioned it being challenging now. Well, it's not now and there are a lot of ways that uh I remember some of the experiences I had as a teenager where I, I remember. One thing that was modeled was that kids could be really cruel, and I, I can remember a string of movies that depicted what bullying was and what that was all about. I was fortunate in that I had such, such a, a unique gift in the way that a lot of people adopted me as their um their mascot or someone that was worthy of their protection. There were instances where An outsider might encounter me for the first time and think it was OK to to treat me a little different. And, you know, just a, a little bit of background for color, uh, I, being from a family that was not of means. Uh, we had to do what we could to try to present well. Uh, but we had to do it, uh, with, uh, you know, just being creative with how it was that we could, um, you know, make the most of, of whatever clothing we had and So I, I was never one to follow trends. I, I had to carve out my own unique way of presenting, and it worked for me. Uh, I was, uh, a kid that stood out, not just because I might have looked a little different than the demographic, but because I, I really looked different, uh, and That would cause me to, to get some attention that uh from some people would be negative at first, but those that knew me would come to my side and be my protectors, and it was such a beautiful experience. I, I'm, I find myself, as you say that, feeling envious because I did not have that. I did not have protectors growing up. Um, the bullying was incessant, and is that the right word? Am I using the right? Yeah, no, it's incessant and Um, there was no protector. Um, so you kind of segued into where I wanted to go next, you know, all of your experiences of, of being othered and being different. How did that? Impact your creative life. It gave me Fuel for being able to approach things from a completely different perspective. And I can recall it being given the freedom to uh To, to just create an an assignment I had for a literature class. And it was, it was one of those things where I, I was having a complete teacher's pet moment, but, um, I was just given free reign to produce something. So I, uh, I remember I was in, uh, I can't remember if it was middle school or high school, but I produced a play that had um all sorts of Uh, dark themes and, you know, very serious, uh, very serious, uh, subject matter that, uh, maybe it was a little bit racy, but, uh, it was given a treatment that was made somehow OK. And very well received and everyone that uh got to experience it was um you know, they were on board, they, they went for the ride, they loved it and no one. In a community where uh I would expect people to be a little bit uh upset by anything that was not vanilla, no, no one had a harsh word to say about it. Mm, wow. So tell, tell us, I mean, I know some of this, but let's bring the audience into this and how, how does creativity show up for you, you know, because once again, I, I live with you, you don't, you don't paint, you don't, you don't create art, quote unquote, but you are a highly, highly creative person because a lot of it happens inside your head. Oh, a lot of it does, and I do have opportunities to allow it to get out at times. Uh, the biggest thing I struggle with is trying to tamp it down because I know that if I was to just let everything come out that's within me at any moment, it would be overwhelming. It would be unintelligible to someone on the outside. It would take so much effort to try to Draw all of the threads together to to make things work, but I can tap into. The unique experience that I have of the world in such a way that I can Make it to and to solutions that would otherwise seem out of reach, or I can see things in in different ways and get to uh get to a conclusion that might take several iterations otherwise. And so you're describing how creativity shows up for you, yes. Yeah, it's, it's in a, in a way that Um, well, you got to see some of it displayed when we were with the family at Christmas time, and, uh, when we were playing, playing some of the games, it was really hard for me because the, in, in some instances, you know, when we were solving the, the word puzzles, I, I could immediately see with very few clues, OK, I, I've got the solution, but, um, well, I, I have to go through, like I I presented this solution to the very first clue. Uh, when we were playing Wheel of Fortune and Uh, there were two letters on the board and it's like, OK, but you gotta. Got to go through and provide all of the letters because we only have so So much time to solve the puzzle and it would have taken more time to solve the puzzle than it would to just play through. And Uh, there, there are a lot of things. A lot of abstractions that just come easily for me. Like I can There are a lot of ways when presented with uh an option or if I, if I'm said A or B, you know, if I only have two options. Then I wonder about all the other solutions that I see and why they're not just as valid, because they all, I can see. Both sides of the coin, but I can also see the ridges. They're just as real to me and just as powerful. So, are you describing what we would refer to as problem solving? Problem solving is uh a big part of it, uh, but I would say that it's also just an just a way of embracing. Uh, aspects of the world that are otherwise unseen, not considered. OK. And what aspect of the creativity that you experience? What are the things that light you up, that feed your soul? Uh, you know, I would say the biggest thing for me is Having any experience where I can. Feel like. They're really, there's a real sense of joy that comes from bonding, community, you know, from sharing, from having a moment where someone can Be completely who they are without fear of judgment. And, and just knowing that they can be held and seen and appreciated. OK, so we're stepping away a little bit now from the problem problem solving aspects of creativity and you're describing something. Else, go in, go into more detail. OK, well, um. I, I think it, a lot of what I'm describing comes from my experience of growing up, you know, largely as an only child. Uh, there were a lot of ways that, you know, as Uh, as an only child with, um, limited, well, you know, there were very few other children around me. I had to figure out. How to Entertain myself. And there were a lot of times when uh my parents went with their, in their pursuit of uh doing the things that they needed to do to support the family. Uh, they would, uh, leave me in, uh, In childcare situations that were, you know, I was either going with them or they would find Uh, some friends who might have also had children, usually a little older. Um, that, uh, I would be around and I would have to still figure out how to entertain myself. And so, as a, as a child, I was as observant as as any kid was. And curious, I would uh pick up on things, but, you know, I guess bringing back to that theme of feeling picked on and othered, you know, I, I remember how I will always hold on to how bad that felt. And I, I know that. The last thing that I would ever want to do is make anyone feel unwelcome or to feel like they don't belong because I've had experiences of that, enough experiences of that to last several lifetimes. I hear you. So Tell me a little bit more about how creativity shows up in that vein of bringing people together and community and. Oh, absolutely. Uh, 11 of the things that Has been uh an area of of great interest for me has been Uh, understanding how it is that we can better relate. How it is, what it is to ask better questions and to approach people with genuine interest. Because So much of what is modeled, so much of what people will naturally rely upon, is, is really surface and really bad. And There's such a rich. body of study, uh, that goes around. How it is that people are activated, you know, I, I fully appreciate that. A person becomes completely activated when they're talking about themselves. And So that's something that I try to leverage, you know, especially in a situation where I'm meeting someone new. I, I will engage them in such a way that I, I try to find out what their interests are, what drives them, what makes them happy, what are their hopes, their fears, their dreams, what, what it is that they're all about. It it serves a purpose of helping to steer a narrative away from the things that we call polite conversation, the things that are safe, you know, uh, the, the dreaded question, um, what do you do? Uh, and, you know, that only, that only goes to to bad places because it, it's a throwaway question with a response that, you know, we, we probably don't even pay attention to, but the ways that we, we process it are ways that are full of judgment and Uh, they, they make us, uh, kind of forget that the person in front of us is an actual human being that, you know, came from, from parents or maybe they don't know their, their parents or, you know, uh, they, they may have some hobby that they're really into. If, if we don't give it, give that person a chance to Show us who they really are, then there's nothing that we can really latch on to. Nothing that we can really uh probe to have a, a deeper appreciation of who they are. Yes, and it's hard to Have someone. Feel seen when you're on a surface level, yeah. Yeah, usually on the surface, the the inclination is to go through the polite script and then get away as soon as possible so that No one has to, it doesn't leave you with a feeling of being, uh, of being warm and fuzzy. It's more of a feeling of going through the exercise and hoping never to repeat it. Yeah, I think that's what I often refer to as mental masturbation. It's a great name for it. Um, so, Aside from the. Challenges that you've already spoken of. Is there any other thing of significance that has really challenged your creativity? Uh, um, you know, I would say. There is Definitely a, a pattern that I've had to deal with over my life, that's been one of Wearing masks. Um, I, I know that. I, I needed to be careful to present in certain ways because uh my uh parents uh paved the way for me to go into certain places, uh, for, for my um early education. Uh, and I, I learned when I would go in summer with my, my grandmother and, and go to, uh, the churches in in East Texas. That, um, All of the, the ways that I had learned to to be uh comfortable and and OK with myself were not seen as OK. I was not uh performatively black enough in, in some instances, and Yeah. I, I was fortunate enough to feel secure enough in who I was to appreciate that a lot of A lot of what um was what I viewed as being um performatively black was something that was manufactured by a lot of um white gatekeepers in Hollywood. To be marketed to suburban white teens most likely to just to sell more stuff. Given your experience, do you think that what you're describing right now, the, the performatively black, do you think that's something that others In your community will relate to? Uh, I, I honestly do. I honestly do. I, I can, um, point to some. Instances I I can remember. An interview that I heard um. Uh, Diana Ross's daughter giving about how Uh, she was expected to Uh, audition in certain ways that were inauthentic to her. And um there was a point where once she knew she made it, she could speak out against that. And I think that's a A very real way that, you know, through through her story, we can appreciate that. We can't uh treat an entire group of people as a monolith, you know, we're just because I might share certain traits. With someone, you know, look, look a certain way, present a certain way visibly on the outside. I am a unique individual. I'm, I'm my own experiences, I am. Um, I'm made up of all of the, all of the days that uh led to me being here where I am today. And they will be different. Um, there are Um, those who, uh, might have walked a completely different path that, you know, may have had a completely different set of influences, may have grown up in completely different places. And they might present with completely fair skin and Uh, look as though they uh should uh. Uh, be well versed in Nordic cultures, but Uh, they may have, uh, you know, be incredibly soulful and, you know, well versed in Um, all of the Um, you know, Various um Forms of expression that we might associate with African cultures or Caribbean cultures. You know, thankfully we, we live in a time when people can find their bliss. And uh I, I think that we're. Um, Growing toward a time when when people can Just fully appreciate exploring what it is that lights them up without fear of judgment. When people can fully express. Mhm. So Coming back around to. Creativity. What are some of the big lessons you've learned in your journey? I'd say One of the biggest lessons that I've had to learn is that there's There's something to be valued in doing. The work, whatever that work is, you know, there's something about getting reps in. Uh, I, I've learned to appreciate that. There are a lot of things that I can try my hand at. And I may not be the best, or, you know, I could have a completely different experience and have some beginner's luck, you know, have some early success. And The um, the mastery comes from Continuing to To do the work, to um allow it to, to feed your soul, to find yourself in what it is that you're doing. It doesn't matter if it was, you know, in my, my school days when I was playing. Uh, I remember playing brass instruments. Oh, my parents certainly hated, um, what it was for me to practice because Uh, I was playing a French horn unmuted in a very tiny house. And I, I was as bad as anyone was is when they first start playing for the 1st 3 years. Uh, and, you know, I eventually made it to a point where, um, I, um, Remember Uh, going and and playing for, um, a little extra cash, uh, playing a few gigs in town, um, playing the, the trumpet and Uh, flugelhorn and Um, you know, eventually. Uh, being able to, to sub for things, they had me to fill in for a guy in a jazz band, uh, playing the drums and You know, that was definitely an experience for me because, you know, having played wind instruments for so long, the first time I sat at the set, I, I was faking it and, you know, just trying to make it work. But again, it's all about just doing the work, you know, just sitting down and trying it. A lot of things may seem really hard and impossible, or, you know, just not knowing a way that There's that you could actually do something, but It comes down to just being willing to try, just uh finding the inner courage to dig down and just start and see where it goes. Well, to perform in bands, you must have developed a certain proficiency for. The horn or whatever instrument you were playing. Yeah, my uh my principal was the French horn. I started in middle school, um, played. Uh, through most of high school and um I, I loved it. It was, it was one of those things I I loved so much that, um, I remember. Um, it was, it's kind of an expensive, uh, thing to pursue. Um, my, uh, parents were on board, but my dad told me that I needed to Uh, fund the private lessons and, and all of the expensive things that went along with it, and I went for it. I got a job at the local theme park and I, I did all kinds of odd jobs to To make it happen. And I, I remembered the feeling of being able to see that the trajectory, you know, going from it being something that was really hard to something that became a bit more effortless and, you know, building, uh, a library of, of different, uh, uh, different works that I could draw from and, you know, really enjoying it. And what happened to the horn? I may have asked you this before, but I remember what happened to the horn. Um, well, um, I Did not um Uh, at the, uh, in my junior year of high school, I had to Um, go to another town and um a lot of my immediate concerns were, you know, just around survival, so Uh, I did not have time to pursue music anymore. I, I tried, um, but it was just not something I had the time or energy for. Uh, because I, um, was Pretty much in school or working most of the time and sleeping when I could. Did you sell the horn? Um, I did. Do you ever miss it? You know, it, it's one of those things where I can appreciate that that was a, a chapter, you know, it was a beautiful experience and it's something I can bond with other people over, you know, a lot of people have had the experience of, of learning to play an instrument in school and, you know, it's a, it's definitely Uh, something that Is a touchstone that people can relate to. Mhm. Well, Let's shift gears a little bit and talk about community. Oh, absolutely. How, how would you say? Community has intersected with your creativity. Uh, I would, you know, community is. Essential for uh creativity to exist. You know, I, I have a strong appreciation for how uh anyone can create anything, but Uh, there's a point where The artist has to let go of the work and the way for it to live is How it's Received by those that view it or experience it, eat it, what, however it is that they take it in. And it becomes a part of a larger conversation. It becomes something that starts to shape culture. It it's something that shifts what it is that people are thinking about and, you know, what's on the, the collective mind. And, and your particular brand of creativity, Dwight's creativity. How has community played a role in that? Oh my gosh. Oh well, like anyone, I I know that I need to have some validation that comes from anything that I try. Um, there are a lot of ways, a lot of the things that, that we do when, whenever we're bringing people together, the, the experiment doesn't complete until we see how it lands. We, we get to see, you know, all of the, the things that we might plan for an event. They, they might go well or they might go poorly, but even when they don't go well, there's still some magic in the air and the way that we see that people have had an experience. And there's something that's really special in that. I agree completely. Well, a lot of your creativity shows up in your workplace. Am I correct? It does. It does. And although the workplace is a little different animal, is there an element of of of community in there? Oh, there definitely is, and you know, one of the things that I, I've been known to get really passionate about is how Uh, in a lot of ways, I know that I am so fortunate to work for a place that allows me to make a difference in Um, Uh, well, swim upstream against uh a tide of growing division and apathy. Um, I, I happen to work for people on the front lines in government. In in various forms. So, if there's something that happens in a courthouse or in a jail, I've probably had some uh personal experience with the people that are are making everything work there. And the thing about it is Those are places where you're going to most likely see people on their worst days, or they're going to be dealing with some of the fallout from the consequences from the worst things that they might have gone through. There are some slight exceptions, you know, you're gonna have some people that are going there to get married or to finalize an adoption, but in most cases, someone will have to deal with Um, having been accused of a, a crime or Um, Being a part of some uh civil dispute or having to deal with somehow. Having to defend themselves publicly for something that they would much rather be private. And a lot of the people that make all of that work, have things that they have to do. They have a lot that they have to juggle. And, you know, I'll focus on those that are the least resourced, you know, if we go to, uh, any of those, um, Small offices that are away from uh the glamour, the small claims courts uh in uh Texas and Georgia. I've worked in both. Generally what you'll find is The state heaps on a whole bunch of requirements for these offices. Sometimes you just have one person that's supposed to do the same thing that uh you would have in the larger jurisdictions, you know, the requirements stay the same, but they just have, they don't have the staff to be able to make it so people can specialize. So they have to do everything. They have to deal with all of the traffic, the commercial uh violations and They have to make sure that the reporting is accurate. It's up to date and, you know, there, there's a lot that they have to make happen. And I go in and I, I remember the decade or the more than a decade that I was a consultant. I would be the guy that would go in and say, hey, this stuff that you've been uh And you've had 30 years to get used to. Well, I'm the guy that's representing the company that's making it all go away. And, uh, you're gonna have to learn a whole new way of doing things because we've got, you know, this is a system that, that your, that your court bought, that your county bought, your state bought in some cases, and um we're gonna, I'm gonna go through it with you and we'll we'll make it work. So you were seen sometimes at least initially as the bad guy. Oh my God, there, there were so many times when people hated me at the beginning, especially. But we would go through the pain of making it work and I'd stand them up and we would look at it as an opportunity to figure out, well, why is it we've always done these things, you know, why, why can't we do some things that are a little different? And there would be a point usually where they would see, oh, wait. Oh, you mean I can do these cool things that make it so that I don't have to go and check every single thing anymore? I like, I can batch things and make it to where this is really easy. Oh my gosh. Oh, I became a hero because all of a sudden, they, they went from a place, you know, in their old systems especially, they just Push the buttons. They were like, well, you know, I just stamped these things that come across my desk. I don't know what they are, I don't care. And I send them somewhere else. And, you know, a lot of what I did as a consultant was just you know be like a, a curious child. I was like, well, why are you doing that? Like, what's going on there? Why, why are you doing that? They're like, well, I don't know, cause I've always done it. Like I, you asked me why 10,000 times. I, I don't get it. And then when they got to see the pieces come together, they were like, oh my God, this, this stuff is so cool. I, I had no idea that that work could be so much fun. And, you know, that. That always is, is a moment that I live for with any engagement where I can get them to see that they have these powerful tools at their disposal, and they can do some really impactful things. And they go from, yeah, I mean, you, you can see it, they, uh, in the before, they are just miserable public servants, you know, they're like, you know, just enjoying the benefits, got a lot of holidays, I got time with the family, um, you know, looking at, uh, making it to that retirement, and that's it. And when it's over, they're like, oh my gosh, I can do some really cool stuff. This is amazing. Turned around the way they felt about their daily grind, their job. Yeah, wow. If you could get past the part where they thought you were the villain in the beginning, you had it made, didn't you? Oh yeah, yeah. Every time. So, Dwight, looking back on all you've experienced and all of the creative aspects of all you've experienced, the challenges you've been through, the life lessons learned. What is your biggest Piece of wisdom that you could impart. On the listener. Uh I would say that There's definitely a, a true concept that I see repeated in art. Uh, that I see and repeat it in great works. There's the concept of there being the wheel of fortune. And We have to learn to appreciate that there are going to be times when things are hard, when life is, is gonna be tough. But we get to choose who we get to be in those moments, those times that we have to experience something that's a little rough. It's building, uh, it, it's giving you a scar that's going to prepare you. And make you More grateful for when things are sweeter. I love that. Say a little bit more about we get to choose who we are and how we show up. Yeah, there's, there's definitely. An opportunity for you to show up as the, the one that. Is going to have. An adventure instead of experience a disaster. And I, I'll just share a quick story where I, I had a, a direct experience of that. I remember when I was flying from Dallas to Peoria on a weekly basis, and, of course, I had to do this during the springtime when there were tornadoes in both places. And I remember one such trip. Where I was running. Two different terminals in DFW to make it to start my work week. Uh, because they were rolling flight cancellations. So, the, the end point for where I was going to go was winding up, uh, farther and farther away from where it was that I was going to work. But I just kept rolling with it. They would cancel each gate, and there were some other travelers that were in the same boat. So we were all doing the same thing. We got to know each other a little bit. And by the end of it, and I, I think we all wound up flying to Champaign Urbana. And this is after a whole day of running from terminal to terminal. To finally get to. To actually make it to a flight. And of course, most of us landed a place that's not where we made arrangements. And so we had to figure out how to do the the final leg. So what we did when we landed was we uh got together and rented a van. And we made it so that each of us were dropped off at our respective places, so we could resume our trips. You know, I got my rental and, and all was good. We had such a great time. Just dealing with the craziness, just figuring it out and Yeah there's a lens that you could look at that through where You, you're just disappointed at everything that happens, you know, oh my goodness, a delay, a cancellation. Another flight canceled. Oh, I'm just gonna give up. I'm not even gonna try to go today. You know, you're you're basically describing the universe gives you lemons, so you make lemonade absolutely looking at every Everything that comes up that's different than what you planned as a potential adventure. Yes. I love that. I, I, I probably could personally stand to do a little bit more of that to just think, oh my gosh, the universe has a different plan for me today. I wonder where it's gonna take me. You know, we just had that on Christmas morning, we had a whole plan for Christmas Day and on Christmas morning. The electricity went out in our neighborhood for the entire day. There were 9 homes without electricity and. It changed everything we were planning to do and we just. Randomly made up a whole new plan, got adventurous, got creative because there's no restaurants hardly open on Christmas Day. Everybody laughs and says, oh, on Christmas Day it's gonna be Chinese. Well, it was Chinese was about the only restaurants that were open. We went and had a fabulous Chinese meal and then went to the movies, which is not what we had planned at all, and it ended up being a great day when we. Just let it be an adventure rather than a disruption. Yeah, it was perfect. I get what you're, what you're saying. So and so how this applies to our creative life. Would be, you know, when we're, when we're in creation, we, we don't always know where creation is going to take us. We have to be willing to flow with creation. That's right. Cause rarely does it come out the way you think it's gonna come out. I, I mean, I never ever, when I, when I was painting, I never started a painting that I had any idea how it was gonna end. It just no way, there was no endgame, you know, as a hairdresser, as a makeup artist, there was an endgame. You had a picture in your mind before you started that you were trying to achieve and, and most of the time I got after 40 years of service in the beauty industry, I got really good at achieving the end product, but. There's a lot of things that don't work that way. Art is one of them, you know. Now maybe if, you know, I don't know, maybe, you know, the, the, the statue of David, he had an exact, he knew exactly what he wanted when he started carving that stone. I don't know, maybe. Who knows But a lot of times, um, the medium takes us on a journey. And that's the beautiful part. That was the hard part for me, you know, after 40 years of having an endgame before I started, that was the hard part for me. But I always knew that if I could let go and just start putting paint on the canvas and moving it around, that it would take me. Someplace interesting. You know, it's, it's funny. I, I think about how we've, we've covered a lot of interesting ground here, but Uh, there's a, a big part of my story that we haven't touched at all, and I, I think you know exactly where I'm going. Uh, what I experienced during the pandemic. Oh yeah, well, it's a, it's a story for another day. Yeah, another episode at some point or it'll be woven into our um episodes with, with, um. Featured guests, uh, yes, you have a lot more, and I do too. We both have a lot more stories to tell, and there's plenty of time to do that. Yeah, so at least we hope there is. Uh, nothing's promised, but I'm, I'm not planning on going anywhere. No, nothing's promised. You are correct. This has been awesome. I've really enjoyed getting to ask you the questions and hearing your answers, and I, I'm sure our listeners uh will enjoy it equally. Yeah, this has been great. I'm looking forward to the next episode. Me too.